Giulio Mazzoleni is a name that needs no introduction among well-informed Madonna fans. The author of the monumental Madonna Songbook—a book so hefty it could double as a weapon—created the first truly comprehensive and in-depth study of the Queen of Pop’s work. No gossip, no tabloid fluff—just a sharp focus on the music. Madonna Songbook is more than a book. It’s a manual, a guide, and in some ways, even a bible for anyone who truly wants to understand Madonna as an artist.
Our online acquaintance began in a rather unexpected way—with a debate about how Pray for Spanish Eyes was a bigger hit in Poland than Express Yourself (at least according to the legendary Radio Three’s music chart, which at the time was the country’s most trusted source of music rankings). But soon, that exchange turned into something more—a lively conversation between two dedicated fans who prefer to ask “why?” before jumping to conclusions. The excitement grew, especially knowing that Giulio had worked directly with Madonna and, thanks to his extensive industry experience, knows the ins and outs of collaborating with major stars better than almost anyone.
In the spring of 2025, questions began to take shape—the ones that would form the basis of this interview. From the very beginning, Giulio impressed not only with his knowledge and preparation but also with the calm, professionalism, and precision he brings to every topic he touches.
So here it is: our interview with the author of Madonna Songbook. We cover it all—from early inspirations and research methods to moments of creative fatigue. We talk about Madonna’s future, whether we can expect another tour, and try to answer questions like what exactly Veronica Electronica is, and why we’re still waiting for Bedtime Stories – The Untold Chapter. And of course, we include some of the questions you submitted after we announced this conversation.
What is your first memory related to Madonna?
My first memory related to Madonna is a picture from the Like a Virgin photo session with Steven Meisel. It’s that shot of her standing against a wall, holding blue satin sheets to her chest. Next to it was a photo from Desperately Seeking Susan. A friend of mine at school showed them to me in a teen magazine after I asked her, “Who’s the latest, coolest new name in music? I’m looking for someone interesting.” She said, “I have a girl for you. Her name’s Madonna.” She showed me the photos and told me to listen to Into the Groove on the radio.
But I honestly don’t remember if I first heard Into the Groove or if I first saw the Dress You Up video on TV. Those are my earliest memories.
At what point would you say you “became a fan”?
That was exactly when I became a fan. There wasn’t any slow build-up. I just instantly fell in love with her—her look, everything—but mainly her energy and her music. I remember it was the fall of 1985. Soon after, she released Live to Tell, and I was already a mega fan. I even remember my uncle telling me, “That woman you really like, that girl Madonna, has released a new record.” So, yeah—everybody already knew I was a fan.
In Europe, Madonna wasn’t initially seen as a likely star. That changed around the release of “Like a Virgin,” but in countries behind the Iron Curtain, like Poland, everything arrived with some delay—even if it was already a hit in Western Europe. Do you remember how her presence in mainstream media looked in Italy at that time?
Yes, that was exactly the time she became famous. She had a few radio hits all over Europe—Like a Virgin, Material Girl, Holiday—but when Into the Groove and Desperately Seeking Susan came out, and Into the Groove got added to the Like a Virgin album, everything just exploded. That was around August or September 1985. The album had been released in the U.S. almost a year earlier.
There was suddenly a lot of attention—from the media, from the public—and it kept growing, especially with True Blue in the summer of ’86. Italy was one of the top-selling markets for that album. But the real breakthrough came the following year, in 1987, with the Who’s That Girl Tour, which ended in Italy. The media talked about her non-stop all summer, and it peaked in September when she came for two shows—one of which was broadcast on TV. Fourteen million people watched it in Italy alone, and it was shown across Europe.
How did you become involved with the Italian Madonna fan club?
It all started with meeting people through ads in magazines—just like Susan and her lover in Desperately Seeking Susan used to do in the New York papers. We’d post ads in music magazines that said things like, “I’m a Madonna fan, I want to trade records and photos, I’m looking for friends to talk to.”
Through that, I met some fans who were running small fanzines here in Italy. One was Mauro in Milan, who later introduced me to Matthew Rettenmund—we’ve been friends since 1991. The other was Alberto Fusi in Rome, who later became my roommate here in Milan. We’re still friends, since 1990.
Later, when Madonna launched her official fan club, I volunteered to write articles for Icon magazine. They liked my work and asked me to be the official representative of the Madonna fan club in Italy. That meant handling subscriptions, getting fans to sign up for Icon, and ordering merchandise from the Boy Toy catalog.
When Madonna first came to Poland in 2009, there was huge media interest, but also controversy because of the date which was August 15—Polish Army Day and the Assumption of the Virgin Mary (most of the Poles are catholics). When she first visited Italy in 1987, was she also seen as controversial? What was it like back then?
She was seen as provocative in 1987, but also very, very appealing. There was some recycling of the nude photos that had come out in 1985, with the media looking for scandals, but overall, it was a moment filled with positive energy.
Did you have the chance to see her live at that time?
I was only 14, and my parents were too lazy to take me all the way to Torino from our town. So I only got to watch it live on TV.
When was your first time, and what are your memories of that experience?
My very first concert ever was a Madonna concert—Blond Ambition in 1990 in Rome. I was completely shocked, in the best possible way. It felt like someone had opened up my brain and picked through it. There was such a deep intellectual connection, but also a physical one—I was dancing like crazy.
I had expected something super energetic, like the Who’s That Girl Tour, and instead I got a show that was just as energetic, but also extremely intellectual. I couldn’t believe my eyes. It was exactly what my mind needed. And honestly, ever since then, I’ve only considered other shows truly great if they measure up to Blond Ambition.
As an Italian fan, you had a front-row seat to the drama around “Like a Prayer” and the “Blond Ambition” tour. What do you remember from that period? How was Madonna portrayed? How strong was the public outrage in Italy? What role do you think the Pope played in it?
She was definitely seen as controversial during Blond Ambition in 1990—mostly due to media speculation. A lot of the noise supposedly coming from the Vatican was really just a couple of journalists from the Vatican newspaper and some religious activists. It wasn’t truly the Pope’s involvement. To be honest, John Paul II didn’t really concern himself with things like that. He was above it.
But the media blew it up, and there was some backlash. She struggled with ticket sales, even though she had come off a triumphant tour in 1987. In 1990, it was harder. There was definitely a perception, especially among religious people, that she had become a negative figure. And that perception lasted a long time. After Blond Ambition, she released Erotica, which was a real test.
It took her a long time to come out of that “dark” period in Italy. Still, radio stations never stopped playing her music—so there was always this interesting dichotomy.
You are one of the few fans who had the chance to work with Madonna on promoting her albums in Italy. What is it like to meet your idol professionally?
It was extremely… human. I remember being worried that meeting her might ruin the myth—the person from the posters on my bedroom wall. But in reality, I had spent so much time imagining Madonna as a real person, as a professional, that when she walked into the room, she immediately reflected everything I had hoped for.
Liz Rosenberg was with me, and she warmly introduced me to Madonna. She had prepped her for my presence, and Madonna was very open, warm, and welcoming. She appreciated that I was professional too. We only got a little emotional at the end of the meeting.
We did interviews together in Rome. She relied on me and kept asking for my feedback. I was sitting next to Liz during the sessions. Liz had cleared the room—only the journalist and the camera crew stayed. It was very, very special.
Then I saw Madonna again during the shows in Milan and Florence. I gave her the platinum disc. Later, I saw her again for Rebel Heart—she did a beautiful TV performance in Italy, singing Ghosttown and Devil Pray.
I also saw her again when I was working with Luigi and Iango for their exhibit in Milan. I organized the party, Rocco performed, and Madonna came to the show. But that very first meeting—she was so warm. I really have to thank Liz for that.
What is Madonna like in person, when the spotlight is off and the cameras aren’t rolling?
She’s the real Madonna. She’s very much like the one we see on camera—extremely professional, incredibly focused, with a sharp sense of irony. She’s demanding of herself and of everyone around her. Nothing about her behind the scenes is surprising, to be honest. She’s authentic.
When and under what circumstances did the idea to write the book come about?
The idea came when I realized there was no book really dedicated to Madonna’s music. There are a few nice handbooks out there, but they’re very short and superficial. I’m also a big fan of Prince, and I found a fantastic book about his music. Then I discovered that the same author had written similar books on Elton John and Freddie Mercury—or maybe it was David Bowie.
And that’s when it hit me: the trend would probably continue with books about Bruce Springsteen, Sting, or Paul Simon—but not about a woman. Not about Madonna. Because rock culture is, in my opinion, very sexist. And Madonna has suffered from that sexism more than other female stars. The only ones who’ve truly broken the glass ceiling are Tina Turner—and to some extent, Cher.
It’s very difficult for women to be seen as musical artists rather than just performers or sexual personas. Especially Madonna, who—unlike Cher or Tina Turner—is a songwriter and producer herself. She deserves recognition for her talent in music writing and production.
How long did the research and material gathering take? How long did the writing process last? Did anyone help you?
The whole process took two years. The first year was more relaxed—I worked on it in my spare time, a day here, a day there. But toward the end of that year, I started focusing on it almost every day for a couple of hours. Then, starting in the second year, I worked on it daily—at least every evening after dinner, sometimes late into the night. Sundays were devoted to it entirely.
There were nights when I would finish at four or five in the morning because I had a deadline—I was planning my wedding and a long honeymoon, so I had to get the book done beforehand.
My main help was Anthony Coombs, who designed the book. He’s based in New York and also worked on Encyclopedia Madonnica and MLVC60—two beautiful books done with Matthew Rettenmund. Anthony helped me a lot with visualizing the whole project.
What was the hardest part of writing such a massive project? Were there moments when you didn’t know how to continue and considered giving up?
I never thought about giving up, but I did hit a bit of writer’s block with the Rebel Heart chapter. There are so many songs, and by that point, I was a bit exhausted. I wrote the book chronologically, and that chapter comes near the end—but it’s also almost three times as long as the MDNA chapter.
I remember thinking, “I’m never going to finish this.” I was stuck for about ten days. But during that time, I shifted my focus to working more with Anthony on the visual aspect of the book. That gave my brain a break from writing, and afterward, I was able to jump back into it.
I can absolutely relate. In my articles and podcasts, I focus on different periods of Madonna’s work, but I’ve been avoiding Rebel Heart so far simply because of the sheer amount of material—it feels overwhelming. But despite those creative blocks, your book is a treasure trove of information for people like me who also create Madonna-related content. I can honestly say it has become my best source for podcast material. But was there anything you didn’t know beforehand that surprised you during your research?
Thank you so much. I’m really happy to have created a helpful tool for people researching Madonna’s music. There were a few things that surprised me during my research—mainly the interviews I did with her collaborators: Stephen Bray, Rick Nowels, Nikki and Donna, Mike McKnight, Tommy Martin, and many others.
And also, listening to three songs that are not officially available—three demos she recorded with Shep Pettibone in early 1994. You can read all about them in my book. They’re called Bring It, I Will Always Have You, and Something’s Coming Over. They clearly inspired songs from Bedtime Stories, but they’re very different.
I was especially surprised by the information about Madonna’s club tour in 1983–84. Where does the claim come from that she performed “Ain’t No Big Deal” during those club shows?
Everything I write in the book is documented—especially quotes. You’ll find footnotes that indicate exactly which book, magazine, radio show, or internet article the quote comes from. I don’t speculate. If I’m not sure about something, I say so—or I leave it out entirely.
The confirmation that Madonna performed Ain’t No Big Deal comes from a tweet by Erika Bell, one of Madonna’s dancers at the time. She posted it a couple of years ago and explained that in the early shows, Ain’t No Big Deal was part of their setlist alongside Everybody.
If we speak about this, I have a theory I must share with you as you are the best person to discuss about this. It’s about “Ain’t No Big Deal” and “Everybody.” Initially, Madonna and Mark Kamins were betting on the former as the breakthrough track. It was only later, when the demo didn’t satisfy the label, that Sire Records decided to polish “Everybody” instead. We all know the story about how Madonna persuaded Kamins to play her demo at Danceteria. If they both believed “Ain’t No Big Deal” had more potential, isn’t it likely that Kamins actually played that track at the club—not “Everybody”?
Yes, my friend, you’re totally right. It was Ain’t No Big Deal that Mark Kamins played the first night at Danceteria. He might have also played Everybody, but Ain’t No Big Deal was definitely one of the tracks—and he really liked it. So did Michael Rosenblatt at Sire Records, and so did Seymour Stein. That’s how Madonna got signed.
But ultimately, Ain’t No Big Deal didn’t work out the way they’d hoped. If you look at the interview Madonna did with Molly Meldrum in 1985 to promote The Virgin Tour, she tells the story and says Kamins played the demo, “and one of the tracks was Everybody.” She didn’t say he played Everybody exclusively—just that it was on the tape. So yes, you got it right.
Let’s talk about the future. Over the years, Madonna has recorded many songs, including quite a few that were never officially released. Do you think the long-awaited Bedtime Stories – The Untold Chapter and Veronica Electronica EPs might signal the beginning of a change in that regard—and that we may finally start hearing more of her unreleased material soon?
Yes, I do believe so, and I’m certain that the long-awaited relaunch of her entire catalog is coming soon. At least, that’s what my sources at Warner Music tell me. I think the Bedtime Stories EP was originally planned for release in the summer of 2025…
…but for some reason we received “Veronica Electronica” vinyl and streaming release. What do you think this project actually is? Unconfirmed rumors claimed that the original EP planned for 1998 was supposed to include, among other things, a 10-minute version of “Frozen” and a long version of “Ray of Light,” which Madonna sang only once at the Roxy club before the album’s release. Yet, at first glance, the announced Veronica Electronica tracklist doesn’t seem to include those. So is its release now just a way to kill time while we wait for something else? In your opinion, how much does this project draw from the original concept, and how much of it is something completely new that shares only the title with the original idea?
Veronica Electronica was a tentative title for the Ray of Light album. When William Orbit’s creativity with Madonna resulted in far longer tracks than needed for the album, Madonna thought of a follow-up EP called Veronica Electronica. She was ready to work on it in summer 1998, but Orbit was busy with other artists. When asked again about the project in November, she said she decided to shelve it because it would have meant singing new vocal tracks and locking herself in the studio for the same songs. She preferred to start writing new material (Beautiful Stranger, Be Careful, etc.).
Now Madonna is finally about to release a series of products that celebrate her catalog. I assume these will include album remasters with bonus tracks and collector’s editions. Some remix EPs will precede such projects, like this Veronica Electronica and the Bedtime Stories EP. This EP only shares the brilliant title Veronica Electronica with the original concept, but I find it pretty exciting nonetheless.
Do you think we’ll have Veronica Electronica now becasue something unexpected happened with Bedtime Stories EP? If so, what do you think it may be?
There are some rumours that some legal issues have come up with the Bedtime Stories EP so they decided to release Veronica Electronica first, but I am confident they will be sorted soon. I am also under the impression that this is just the beginning of a long series of releases
Speaking of unused concepts, which of Madonna’s unreleased songs would you most like to see officially released?
The three songs I heard in Washington at the Library of Congress from the Bedtime Stories early sessions with Shep Pettibone. I would also like to hear and see the release of the earlier version of Goodbye to Innocence, a song I really like in all of its different versions. And obviously, I’d love to listen to Warning Signs, the third song from Vision Quest.
When I announced this interview, some of our followers sent in questions. Here’s one: Janet Jackson compared the sexuality in her work to Madonna’s in the mid-1990s. Madonna, in turn, briefly dated her brother and gave a speech in his memory at the VMAs after his death. Do you know if the two women ever actually met?
I don’t recall seeing any pictures of them together.
I’d also like to ask your opinion on Warner’s approach to Madonna’s legacy. Did Warner take any steps to protect or promote her legacy before she left the label in 2008/09? Do you know anything about that?
I know that every big record company started considering legacy plans from around 2000. I worked at Universal and had friends at Sony and Warner, and it became a common practice. Some artists jumped on it immediately, but Madonna did not want to look back—we know she prefers to look forward. Only very recently has she started to reflect on her legacy, for instance with The Celebration Tour.
It’s one thing for Madonna herself not to focus on her legacy, but why didn’t her label invest more in preserving it, especially considering the poor quality of the Celebration DVD release? Do you know why that was the case?
I don’t think we are entitled to discuss that. We don’t know exactly what happened, what was the state of the art at the time, if the videos were digitized, or if the artist was available for that. Nowadays, we have far better tools, and I believe they’re really working on it.
Madonna has vast live performance experience, but she has never done one thing—an unplugged concert. Is there any information about her ever being approached by MTV Unplugged?
Yes, she definitely was approached by MTV Unplugged in the 90s, but she always turned it down. She said in an interview that everyone else was doing it, and she likes to do things differently. That said, I would really love an acoustic session. She’s done some in showcases, especially with the American Life album,
Which songs would you personally like to hear in that format?
What I’d love most are her ballads—acoustically. All of them. It would be more of a marathon than a small show.
From the perspective of her over 40 years in the business and someone who knows the industry from the inside for a long time—do you think Madonna has made any missteps along the way?
Of course Madonna has made any, has made me steps along the way. So everybody else does, you know, she’s human, but she moves on and she learns from her mistakes.
Maybe a certain single should never have been released—or perhaps one should have, but wasn’t? What’s your take?
There are a lot of songs we could debate about whether they should have been singles. Sometimes Madonna herself chose songs like Human Nature, Drowned World, or Bedtime Story which weren’t as commercially viable as others. Dokonała jednak artystycznego wyboru wbrew komercyjnemu potencjałowi, ponieważ miała coś do powiedzenia za sprawą tych piosenek. Jestem więc pewien, że zdawała sobie sprawę z tego, że mogą one nie zadziałać tak dobrze, jak inne utwory, które byłyby bardziej oczywistymi wyborami na singiel. Inną możliwością jest to, że niektóre utwory po prostu nie stały się singlami, ponieważ nie było wystarczająco dużo czasu lub zainteresowania na rynku.
But yes, I would have loved Where’s the Party as a single, Love Song with a video, and Sooner or Later and He’s a Man. From Erotica, I was very happy with the singles, but Secret Garden would have been incredible. From Bedtime Stories, definitely Inside of Me and Forbidden Love. From Evita, I’m really sorry they didn’t commercially release the remixes for Buenos Aires—I thought it would have been a great single.
From Ray of Light, Skin. My God, Skin would have been great! From Music, Impressive Instant without a doubt. From American Life, Nothing Fails didn’t get the attention it deserved, and I really liked Nobody Knows Me, but it was a B-side. From Confessions on the Dance Floor, I would say Future Lovers. From Hard Candy, She’s Not Me and Beat Goes On. My God, it should have been a single. From MDNA, I’m Addicted—such a mistake not to release it. And Love Spent as well. For Rebel Heart, I loved the singles, but maybe Holy Water and Devil Pray could have been singles. From Madame X, Killers Who Are Partying is my favorite, but I’m not sure if it would have worked as a single.
I have to ask—when do you think we’ll get new music from Madonna? Should we expect another tour?
Yes, I’m pretty sure she will tour again. The Celebration Tour was successful. She enjoyed it. Everything worked well. Of course, she’s going to do another one. I think the new music will come when she’s ready to announce the new tour. Maybe by the end of this year or early next year. This is just my personal speculation—it’s impossible to tell for sure.
For years, Madonna seemed like someone who worked very quickly. In recent times, however, the famous “coming soon” tends to stretch longer. We never got the promised Bedtime Stories EP, none of the reissues announced four years ago have materialized, and there’s been no catalog update on streaming or remastered videos. Why do you think that is? Is there an explanation?
It takes a lot of marketing effort nowadays to support a Madonna release. It’s very difficult to put together—same with any other music artist. Money is completely different. The power of focus is very different. It’s about putting together all the right tools and not wasting a release on just the hardcore Madonna fan community. She really has to keep an eye on the mainstream. So yes, it’s not easy.
Let’s go back to your book. Madonna’s story continues, and we know she’s working on new music. Do you plan to update your book with new songs and information at some point?
Who knows, let’s listen to new music first.
Your podcast recently debuted. I have to say—I’m eagerly awaiting the next episodes. What inspired you to take this path? Do you feel any creative hunger after finishing the book?
Yes, exactly. Creating this book took so much from me that I said, I have to do something else with it. It’s so beautiful. Especially, I like talking about Madonna’s music. So I’m doing these interviews in my podcast where we develop conversations starting from the book, and I’m really enjoying it. Thank you so much for your feedback. I promise there are beautiful episodes coming out. I’m working on a schedule to release episodes every two weeks on Friday nights.
What can we expect from your podcast? Are you planning any guest interviews? Share a little secret with us if you can.
Yes, there’s an interview in every episode and each episode has a different theme. We discuss two songs and a thematic playlist, and it’s beautiful. I’ve done interviews with Matthew Rettenmund, Lucy O’Brien, and I have many more surprises coming.
One last question. Which Madonna song—released or unreleased—is your number one, and why?
It’s very hard to decide, but definitely my top three are Vogue, Into the Groove, and Erotica because they have great rhythm first of all, great melodies, and a great vocal performance. I love the sounds, and they’re very inspiring and very visual—they take me to another world.
Thank you very much for your time and sharing your stories with us.
I really enjoyed this chat and I hope we get to meet in person someday soon.
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